Victory's Insurrection: Episodes 98-99

The finals continue!! And there's cheating afoot? How will Goku and, more importantly, Tien respond?

Art by TenshiArt

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Becoming Saiyans, a Dragon Ball Rewatch podcast. And we're back. I'm Truan. And I'm Jesse. And this is Becoming Saiyans, a Dragon Ball Rewatch podcast. On today's episode, we watched episodes 98 and 99 of Dragon Ball titled Victory's Edge and Tien's Insurrection. And uh Victory's Edge appeared uh air first aired in Japan on January 27th, 1988, and in America on December 26, 2002. Whereas Tien's Insurrection appeared uh or aired on February 3rd, 1988, and December 27, 2002. Jumping into some differences from the manga, um, because there's no trivia on the first episode. I guess you'll n you'll never guess what the first difference from the manga is, Jesse. Let's see if you can remember.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Is it that they're not in the crowd, so there's no crowd scenes?

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Yeah, that's exactly it. It's Yamcha, Bulma, Lancha, and Puar are not president, which means Tien uh doesn't notice Yamcha there. He also doesn't notice that Lancha's musing that Tien's an interesting guy, you which also um in the manga, apparently she develops a crush on him. Um, but it's being set up earlier in the show because she's there. Um in the manga, Turtle asks Goku, uh Goku is able to get through the solar flare, to which Oolong replies he has no idea. In the anime, Puar asks the same question and Oolong replies, like he does in the manga. Whereas um Yamcho explains to uh Bulma how Goku took Roshi's sunglasses. The meditating before starting the third round of the fight isn't in the manga, and Shin si uh signaling Chiatsu to paralyze Goku before it's revealed isn't in the manga. So in the manga, there's no like, hehehe, do it. You know? It's like it just happens, and you're like, what the heck is going on with Goku?

SPEAKER_00 1:55

And then you're like, oh, it's there's no there's no like sneak of like Shin's got something up his sleeves, and then he stops fighting.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Yeah. So, Jesse, moving on to the next episode, there's again no trivia, just differences from the manga. What do you think the first difference is gonna be?

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Hey guys, in case you in case you haven't been with us with the last couple episodes. For like the last 10 episodes, 12 episodes, uh guess who's not there.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

In the manga, Yamcha's leg got broken, so he's not in the anime.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Well, Yamcha's leg is broken, he just showed up in the anime.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

But in the manga, he's still in the hospital because all this happens over one day. So everyone's there.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Everyone's taking care of him in the hospital.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Yes. So again, there's another uh so Yamsha noticing Shiatsu is holding Goku isn't there. Um in the manga, it does not say who it was, um, but launch uh the launch thing out doesn't happen either. Uh when Goku is knocked down by Tien, the announcer does not begin a countdown on the manga. In the manga, whenever Goku attempts to attack Tien, Shin immediately orders Kiatsu to paralyze the boy. Um in the anime, it only happens when Goku seemingly is about to gain the upper hand, where the fight lasts longer. There are only two parallelizations in the manga opposed to five in the anime. The first one happens when Goku and Tien are in the air in the anime, but are um are charging at each other while still on the ground in the manga. As such, Goku has further to fall in the anime, and he also pushes off the waiting area gate as opposed to the ring. Roshi takes a slightly longer to realize Shin's tricks, where in the anime it only takes three compared to the, you know, he in the manga he realizes it after the first. On a note of the third paralysis, Goku outright accuses Tien of cheating, but later think but the latter thinks he's just making excuses before a fourth paralysis. Tien's rapid velocity technique is not in the manga. Shin reminding Tin of his duty to avenge Tao isn't in the manga, and Tien allowing Goku to pummel him to make up for Chiatsu's paralysis is not in the manga. And that's all we have as far as differences uh from the anime, and there is no trivia. So, Jesse, previously on Dragon Ball. The fight continues, and Goku shows that he was just playing around the whole time in the first little bit. Like, yeah, he was getting hurt, but like at the same time, he's like, oh, so I actually need to try now. And so then he immediately starts beating the crap out of Tien for a bit, and then uh Tien starts to beat a little bit uh beat the crap out of him for a little bit, and then the solar flare happens, but Goku grabs sunglasses, and then there's a bunch of whole like uh after image techniques going out back and forth with each other, and then all of a sudden Goku jumps into the air and can't move for some reason. I wonder what could be happening. Into the next episode, it's obviously Chiatsu doing it because Shin told him to, and uh Tien being full of rage does not notice this until five times into it happening. And Goku continually is like, you're cheating. And he's like, quit being a baby and suck it up, you're being a sore loser.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Quit making excuses.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Meanwhile, everybody else is like, what the heck is going on with Goku? He's jumping into the air and just like he's like going in for a punch and then just stops. And he's like, okay, so finally Tien's like, hey man, there's been about five times where you've jumped in to punch me and then stopped mid-punch just to like float in the air. I wonder what's going on. Wait a minute. I know somebody who can paralyze people. I refuse to fight this way. If you don't stop Shin, I'm gonna step out of this ring. And Shin's like, well, paralyze them both, and we're gonna beat the crap out of them. And Chatsu's like, no. And then Roshi Kamehameha's him into the next city planet continent over it. Into the next entire universe. And Shin is gone for the rest of the saga, it seems. And he says, I didn't kill him. He's gonna be bruised, he's gonna be battered, but he's not dead. And with that, you guys can start fighting again for real life. And Tien showing honor allows Goku to beat on him for a minute or so without fighting back so that they are equal in damage taken. And with that, he grows two arms and what the heck is going on right now? And that's what you missed on Dragon Ball. Jesse, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

I I enjoyed these episodes. I think we're at we're at the point where it's like it's the meat and potatoes. If you have made it this far into Dragon Ball, and you somehow have a a reason to just not like these episodes, how did you make it almost a hundred episodes in? Yeah. It's like it's like these are this is the exact type of episode you watch a show like this for. Are these two episodes where like you're just getting to the nitty-gritty, you're fighting, you're having plot in the middle of the fight. It's everything Dragon Ball is like in the the popular like culture mythos. This is what it this is what people think of when they think of quintessential Dragon Ball.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

Goku fighting the big bad of the of the season or art or something. Whatever you want to call it. Whatever you want to call it. He's fighting the big bad of this bit. Tiene has shown himself to be an un unstoppable force to this point and has beaten up everyone he's come across with. And Goku is the only one standing up against him, and so we've got a big fight going down here. And we are trying to f keep up with them and see what's going on, but these are just good ones. Like, the animation, they pull out all the stops for it. There's a couple of times where you can see that they cheat and they use the same they o reuse some animation a bit, but overall they bring out all the stops for this episode. For these like last two episodes, these two episodes, and presumably the next two episodes. It's all or nothing for these guys. Like, they're pulling it all out. We have a mermaid man of Barnacle Boy reference. Um we we have crazy fight techniques, we have Goku being smart, which is good. We have um we have devious schemes from the bad guys, and an honorable heel turn, which is great. And with all of that, I just I really enjoyed these episodes. Like I coming into this, as I was thinking about it, I was like, these two episodes are probably gonna be one of our like less to talk about. Even with the TN like change changing.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Even with how many how much meat and potatoes is in this, it's like we don't get a we don't have the full fight yet. We're we're talking about like we're talking really about the first three and a half rounds of the fight.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Yeah, even though there technically aren't rounds, as the announcer says, he's like, oh I guess round two.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

So it's like it's just kind of how it goes. We have we have the reveal of everything I think if you've been paying attention to the show, you kind of have picked up on. Goku never fully um starts a fight going all out. Like it's it's become a a thing with him. It's like it's obvious he holds back until he knows he doesn't have to.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Yeah. Uh my first note is actually like, man, this is gonna this went from the we went from the longest fight to the shortest fight. Because they talked about how like during the Roche or the Cat Jackie and Goku in the first tournament fight, that like that one was like the longest one in tournament history where it lasted like a full 12 hours or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Yeah, it lasted forever.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Yeah. And then they're like, this is gonna be the shortest one in history. And it's like, well, Goku's gonna have both records on it under his belt here. And he's gonna be a loser in pose. Yeah. But he does not, even though Tien pulls out the classic Super Smash Bros. move of volleying the person into the air. And we just we just play with my food a little bit. Yeah. Let's get that extra damage while you can't hit. Up B. Up B. Up B.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

And then don't smash.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

Yeah. Um and then Goku gets up and he's like, oh, that was fun. I think I can actually fight you. I properly gauged how much effort I need to put into this fight. I was like, Goku, you could have been put another fight.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

If I remember, I'm pretty sure it cuts it like Roshi, and Roshi's like, what? Yeah, yeah. Normal fighting. Yeah, he's yeah, him and him and uh Krillin are both like, what what do you mean normal fighting? I don't think Goku could ever be normal. And it's like, no, by normal fighting, Goku just means I don't have to pull my punches.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

I I I'm liking it uh to um I've never really watched Naruto, but I've like seen clips and stuff. And I know like one of the most famous clips is Broccoli taking the weights off. Taking the weights off and then like crush an entire. And he drops them, and you're like, oh yeah. And then they they're like mountain crushing amounts of weight. Yeah. And it's just like, oh no. Tien might be the one who dies. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

And that that is kind of what it feels like, too. Is it just is he he finally found somebody worthy of his time, is what it kind of feels like, you know. Goku loves fighting and he loves like fighting on an even plane.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Which is why he loves to pull his punches. It's also like it's also similar to like Spider-Man. Yeah. But it's but Spider-Man can't be.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Spider-Man can kill anybody, but kill any of us bad guys with one punch.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Yeah, like it's it's probably closer to Spider-Man because Goku doesn't want to kill people.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

But he also it's so, you know, he has to pull to not kill, and that's what Spider-Man has to do. He has to pull, he has to pull to not kill.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Same with Superman. Like Superman could has to pull his has to like he does the same thing where he has to like demonstrate he has to see, gauge how strong the person is. That means getting beat up a little bit, so he can realize how much effort he has to put into it.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Yeah, I mean, Superman is the obvious comic. Yeah. That's almost the one-to-one. But like it to it like in my immediate thing, like it also, you know, throw in Peter Parker, like all of them where it's just like the characters that can't go all out, because if they go all out, they'll just kill everything. Yeah. It's like that's you know, Goku. A lot of that part of Goku, I think, is inspired by Superman, because Superman came out in like the forties.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Yeah, the 30s and the 30s. Like it was way in the first time.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Like some of Superman's debut stuff was him punching Nazis. Like that was like that was what like what he really became famous for at the time when he first came out. And you um Yeah, and that that's why it's a one-to-one comparison between him and that's what this is kind of supposed to be the Goku uh Goku is the Superman of Japan.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Superman of Japan, yeah. Yeah, he's super Japan man. He's super Japan man. Which is actually kind of funny because they uh for a while in DC Comics, not to go on a tangent here, but in DC Comics they had a push for a the Chinese demographic where they were releasing like they're making superheroes that were uh the same as like our superheroes, like a Batman, a Superman, a Wonder Woman, a Flash, but they were all Chinese, and so there is like a Chinese Superman named like Cho Chin. And it's like his whole story is like he comes from I think um another like Superman type of planet, not Krypton, but like Daxum, I think is the name of it. And it's like it's basically the same thing. He lands on Earth, he has Superman powers because they get the same thing because it's like a neighboring planet uh Krypton or Decrypton. And so he's you know, he's got similar powers and he's a Superman character. Like he wears a Superman outfit, but his name is like Cho Chen or something like that. Like it's literally like that's our Superman of China. It's like when they make Captain Britain, it's like Captain Canada. It's like, oh, so now everybody gets a captain with their flag on them. Yeah, Captain Captain Peggy uh Carter. Yeah. From uh what if? Yeah. But yeah, uh going back onto this, it is definitely like Goku j it's for it seems like the difference between like like Goku doesn't really seem to care all that much about killing people. Like we know he will kill people. He I what it's not he doesn't have a no-kill rule.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Well what we what it is for Goku, I think it's become very obvious, is like he only kills when there's no other way to stop a force. Yeah. Like it which is I think I think it in life, yeah. Especially like if you're in a position a position where killing is an option, like it is a common trope where it's like killing has to be your last option, yeah, and you have to be forced into doing it, because the moment you make killing nonchalant is the moment where your s where your one of your first options is always gonna be I just pull it out, pull the gun out and shoot a guy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

But I think that's the difference between like the other the other analogies we've used here where like Superman or Spider-Man, they don't want to kill people. They don't kill people. Like they don't, you know, like unless there's some extenuating circumstance where they're under mind control or something along with it.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Undermind control, or it's literally like I think like with the like doomsday. So it's like or it's like unless unless it's an it's a being that will not stop unless obliterated. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

But normally they they're gonna try to find the other way. And Goku, it's more just like, I don't want to kill people because I enjoy fighting, and if I kill you, the fight's done. It's like it's like that's what it that's what it feels like.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

But it's also at the same it's also at the same time, I think it's also like he still has the same moral code of like I don't want I don't wanna be like a proverbial murderer. Yeah. Granted, I don't think in his mind he understands murderer. I think I think But it's one of those things where it's like like I think he's just he's so nicely naive about everything that like that's just how he is like it's built in in a different way where it's like a lot of those characters are self-aware of like I don't want to murder because you know that murder is bad. Goku's more like I don't want to murder because murder is bad, but because you know and I'm another person, fighting is fine. I like fighting, why would I kill people? It's not as much murder is bad, but murder is still bad in his mind. Yeah. But I it's why he thinks he takes the step to like kill Tao in a way. Like even though I think he accidentally kills Tao. It like a little bit accidentally kills Tao. But that's like well the reason why he was so aggressive with Tao is because he literally killed a guy in front of him. I don't think he's redeemable, guys. He even tries to redeem him, but Tao just says no.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Yeah, he's like, Well, I guess I gotta fight you till you're done. He gives him multiple chances to walk away, and Tao throws a grenade, and Goku's just like, well, I don't want to get blown up, so I'm gonna kick it, I'm gonna kick it in the air. Wherever it goes, I don't control that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

And Tao just happens to be there, and he's like, Oh, I gotta kill kill Tao.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Yeah, it wasn't on purpose, but yeah. I I just think there is like some slight differences there. I'm not saying that it's not. There's slight differences, but it follows that same character trope of bullet punches and not trying to kill people. I do think eventually it does become like I don't want to kill people. But at this moment it's like as he matures. Yeah, I think at this moment it is more just like I want to have fun in this fight. And if I go out here and kill, I don't get to fight anymore, so why would I kill people, you know? I'd rather just not because I get to that means I get to fight more, you know? Yeah. That's what it that's what it feels like more, especially in this tournament, more than anything, is just that like going all out means the fight ends faster and I kill somebody. And I don't want either of those things to happen. Because if I kill somebody, then I don't get to fight anymore. And if I end the fight faster, I don't get to fight anymore. So why would I want either of these things? Yeah, he's so young and so naive. I think that's as far as his thought process can go. As he gets older, I do think it becomes more I'm a hero, and heroes don't kill people, so I'm not gonna kill people. Yeah, but I think that's where But at this younger age, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

It's much closer to the first.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yeah. But while we're there, I I recut to launch, and there's a funny moment where she's like, heck yeah, now we got some good fight, and it's like while Tien's like being the crap out of the go-ka, and it's like, well, listen, like she just likes fights. Like she's she's like, I want to eat my food, or I want to watch. We were talking about because I think somebody says, Oh man, this bear lasts longer than my popcorn. We both went and used to go and watch um UFC fights with uh with a friend of mine, Dakota, the one we talked about, passed away. Yeah. We would go and watch them at a sports bar together uh on Saturdays, and there were multiple times where we would wait to order our food until the main event, so we'd have something to eat during the main event. But then the main event's over in like 20 seconds. Yes, the main event ends before I we even like get a chance to even like take a bite of our food. And it's like, oh man, and then the bar closes down because it's like you know 2 a.m. or whatever, and they're like, well, we're almost staying open because the fights are going. Like we're a restaurant, we gotta be open in the morning. Like, get out of here. And so we're left with our food having to like stuff it in a go bat in a go box and take it back and eat it somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

But you know what, it's it's uh as we also said, you jump to a there does come a point in time when you're at those, what you're doing those fights and you watch them a lot and you're like involved with it, where you realize going in, you're like, okay, well the well the main card or Ronda Rousey, if they're the main cards.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Those are the times when we were gonna if those are the main cards, those those fights are gonna be over. You should probably order your food maybe 30 minutes before you usually do. Yeah. Like either Connor's going to lose in the first round or he's gonna win in the first round. Same goes for Ronda Rousey. She was either gonna win in 30 seconds or lose in a minute and a half. Like there wasn't like they were like, I'm gonna go as hard as I can at the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

They were built on they were both they're both fighters that are built on I have to I have to get like a kill fast, because if I don't, well, you know, I didn't train stamina.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Yeah, I train punch fast punch hard. I didn't train punch long time. Um and so like seeing that we also we also um you know what like watching this, if we thought that was kind of funny, and we're we were more launch characters is what that was supposed to be there. It's just that like, yeah, we got a good fight tonight. Heck yeah, we got a second round, I can eat my nachos. Um and then I pointed this out to Jesse. I don't think he noticed it until the second time, maybe. But there's a guy standing behind Yangcha that has a hat that just says mermaid on it, and so I said, Mermaid, man, what about barnacle boy? Yeah, that's where that's really Spongebob Judge.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

So that's why I refer to Kevin. No, I I mean I enjoy the techniques in this where it's like you get the volleyball technique, you get you get Goku pulling out ten illusions at once. Yeah, and then having even more.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Yeah, because you get the moment where he like goes to punch Tien, but Tien's one, and so Tien goes to punch him, but then the one that was trying to punch the TN one was one, so then Goku punches Tien for real life. And it's like, what?

SPEAKER_01 20:14

How did you make your after image go through an after image?

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yep. No, uh, and then there is uh there is a really funny moment with like it kept when we've been cutting back to uh Bullmuck throughout the like fights where it's like she's beating the crap out of Oolong's head. Yeah, and then like it cuts it cuts to her in the first episode as she's doing it, and then like it cuts back to like some fighting, and it cuts back to her and she goes to hit Oolong in the head and he like and went to the other side of everybody and like puts his head up like hey long up smart. That was a funny little that gave me a little chuckle when I saw it. Hey, Oolong finally learned not to stand next to her.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Yeah. And then we get the we get Goku being smart.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Like Goku being smart twice, actually. Yeah. Uh the first time everyone thinks that he's being dumb because he he like gets a great combo on TN, launches them in the air, and he goes to start up a Kamehameha wave. And then he like smirks and he's like, nah. Yeah. And everyone's like, what did why why didn't he why didn't he shoot? Like the announcers confused, yeah, Krillin's confused, like Oolong and all of them are confused. And then like he kind of keeps it.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Rush tells Krillin, because Krillin's like, why didn't he take the kill shot?

SPEAKER_00 21:23

And he's like, he would have missed. He would have missed and wasted like energy and left himself vulnerable. Yeah, like Goku. Goku read the fight faster than anyone else could have, where he's just like, he's like stops at last second, he's like, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

He's he's he's pretending to fall around. Yeah. He can fly. As soon as I blast this, he's gonna fly out of the way and just like float to the ground. And then and then you have the solar flare at the towards the end of this episode. Where Goku's seen the solar flare because it was used against Jackie. And so he runs and steals Roshi's Sonnies so that he can like keep his glasses, put the sunglasses on.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

And then not be affected by the solar flare because he's wearing sunglasses. And then stop his punch and just absolutely nail him into the into the air.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah, and he hit like a oo-face. That was really good.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yeah, he's expecting for the kill shot. He's expecting a kill shot. He's not expecting anybody to counter the solar flare. No one has, apparently, in his entire life, I would guess. Yeah. Because nobody's thought, hey, what if we grab some sunglasses? Or they're not prepared for the case. Because most of the time when you're fighting fighting someone in a ring, there's not sunglasses available within distance to get to and get back and then defend yourself.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

He got hit so hard. You know what they did? Played it thrice. They replayed it three times. Played it thrice.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

We have a lot of thrice hits. I didn't rant them all down.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Yeah. But that was one I did write down because it was like right there at the end. And then we see Shin whispering to Chihatsu, and then we see Goku going in for like a flying attack and just like getting frozen and getting punched all. That is where Cliffhangs on the first episode. And we both were like, I wrote down freaking Chiatsu. I even mentioned it to Jesse. This probably isn't a spoiler for you. I feel like you're smart enough to see it.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

I think we wrote down the our Chiatsu thing at the same time. And then you then you said that was obviously Chiatsu, right? And I was like, yeah, I know that's Chiatsu.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

I was like, oh, this isn't spoiling it for you, Jesse, but that was Chiatsu.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

No. So I was like, Tien's not going to do anything that dirty because if he was gonna do something that dirty, he would have done it 10 minutes ago.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Plus, we also haven't seen him use like telepathy to stop him. If he was going to use telepathy to stop him, he would have done it earlier. That's what I was saying.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Like, if Tien was ever gonna use telepathy, he he would have done it before like right, it would have been the cliffhanger on the mid-credit.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Not not at the end.

unknown 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

To obviously end with the Shein thing, like leaning over, it's like, I want to tell Chia to do this.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

And this is where we cut to the next one, which I don't have as many notes for, because it is just a lot of Tien beating the crap out of Goku. Goku saying, Tien, why are you cheating to win? You haven't been cheating this whole time. And Tien being like, I'm not cheating, quit being a sore loser. I'm gonna be chubbed some more. And Goku being like, I can do this, oh no, I'm frozen again. And we do the whole thing over again. Goku hits the ground, he's like, Tien, why are you cheating?

SPEAKER_00 24:23

My biggest complaint, and like I think it can easily be explained as Tien's so focused and filled with rage and trying to win this fight that he's just oblivious to anything that's happening.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

And the other explanation is metatextual, which is that the writers need to pad this episode out an extra five or six minutes, and so we gotta have him not see what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Not figure it out, figure it out to like the mid-credit or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

In universe, it's that Tien is blinded by fury that like number one, that Goku's calling him a cheater, and number two that he's trying to kick the crap out of Goku that he cannot focus on what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

And also, like, in his experience, a lot of the people he fights probably call him a cheater because he's just so much better than him. So it's like it's the fact of like when you're good at an online game and you get called cheater, it's actually like builds it like builds your confidence up more when you're not cheating and you're getting called a cheater. Yeah. It's probably having that type of ego boost to him right here. So he's just oblivious to the fact that oh no, cheating is actually happening. It's just I'm not the one actively doing it.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

And I'm gonna go ahead and spoil the worst part for me for the for the audience and for you. Our worst part, because there's not a whole lot of bad, is the fact that this took so long for him to figure it out. Not that this is awful, not that the animation about it is bad, not that it's not fun to watch in a little bit, like if it was your first time watching it and you weren't sure what's going on, like not that that you wouldn't be like, oh, this is this is bad, Goku could lose, you know. But it is just like, come on, you didn't have to do it five times. The manga did it three times, and that's probably rule of threes, that's probably about as long as you need to do it. Adding those other two ones just felt like padding for time, and though they're it's not awful, it is the worst part of these two episodes, in my opinion. Um, just to get that out of the way ahead of time, well, check it on years later. But um that is just like, you know, come on, Tien, you're not that stupid. Like you can see Goku jump into the air like with a punch and then freeze and hold his hands out for you and just like you punch him in the stomach like 20 times.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

It's like you can't be that like I I get maybe the first time. Maybe the second time I would even argue by the second time you should start getting curious. And then on the third time, you're doing like a hypothesis test. Yeah. Like you're doing a little bit of scientific method. I'm gonna stand here and wait and see what happens. Like, we're gonna initiate it, and then I'm gonna wait to see if it happens again. Yeah. And then when it happens, you're like, hmm, maybe my team's training.

unknown 26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Well, he does eventually get there. And it's like, well, well, TM, the Lux Force finish the crossing the line.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

It's like it's like even even like even Yamcha figured it out. By the time he's figured it out, launch has been launched like 15 miles into inside the island further into inland. Yeah. It's like Yamcha was able to figure it out and fully explain it to Bulma.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

And then Launch pick up on their conversation. Yeah. And and Launch set there and be like, that's messed up.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

And then it happens enough times that she's like, I'm gonna go fix this. And then it happens a couple times after that. It's like, come on, TNG.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

And I see I see Roshi, and I I I remember like in the trivia where it says like Roshi figures it, like, figures it out much slower. I for me, I thought he figured it out by by the like first second time it happened. Like the first time it happened in this episode, yeah, after it first happened last episode. Yeah. I saw him pick it up on the second episode. But it sounds like they said he he didn't pick up on it until the third one. I was like, I thought he picked up on it on the second one.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Well, I don't I think what they were meaning is he doesn't say it until the third one. Yeah. Because even in this one, he doesn't say it until the third or the fourth one.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

He like notices it immediately and he's like, but in but in my my thing is like I would say he pick picking up on it means that you like you have a moment of clarity whether you say it out loud or not. Yeah, but I you know I think that's how I interpret it. But that that does make sense of how they're interpreting it.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Context of writing and stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Um but it's like it's the fact that everyone else figures it out. So like Goku knows something's going on, but obviously it's because it's happening at Goku, but he doesn't know who's doing it. That's why he's accusing Tien of doing it.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Yeah, he's never seen he knows that this group of people can use telepathy because he's seen he saw Chiatsu do it, so he's he's figuring out holding there's no way Shin and Chiatsu are cheating, so it has to be you using this technique and this is BS, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Even if it's not technically, like if Tien is not, he's like he's naively making Shin nicer nicer than he is.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

As close like closer to Roshi. Well, Roshi would not interfere in this fight. Like, you know, he would not like go out and try to hit Tien or do anything because it's like this is your fight and you're gonna do it. But Shin's like, I don't care about that. I want I always want Goku to die. Yeah. I want you to kill. And I love when he when Tien finally realizes it and he says, get the heck away and quit doing this. And then uh then Shin's like, well, fine, like freeze them both, Chiatsu. Chiatsu's like, nah man, I like Tien.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Tien's my butt. And then and then Shin starts like pick up uh Tiatsu who's like, I'm gonna kill you! And then Roshi's just like duck! Yeah, and he just sniper Roshi.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

And he even shows like a move which we don't I don't think we've seen before with the Kamehameha. Where you can like bend the move. You can bend the command nah. I don't know if we'd seen that before Roshi doing it there. But like it is someone's like, I think maybe just by animation, someone's done it before, but I don't think it's it's it's literally a thing later on that like you can like bend it around. You can move your hands and it'll move and like do like zigzags and stuff. Like Yeah. But he like bends them forward. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Or up, I guess I say upward, like vertically, and launches them into the stratosphere.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

Shin is blasting off again. And Tien's like, did you just kill him? He's like, nah, he'll he's gonna be bruised, but he ain't gonna die. He's too old and crotchety to die, you know. Come on, like man, literally too angry to die. Yeah. Um, but in this, which we've kind of skipped over, is just like how honorable Tien is compared to Shin. Like the seed that was dropped in by Roshi during the before the fight started, where he calls it, he's like, You're not a killer. You're not a killer. You're trying to be a you're trying to be a killer, you're trying to be an a-hole, you're trying to live up to the worst killer of all, or the greatest killer of all time, and you're you can't you can't match him.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Like, like the the problem that TN, I think Jatsu kind of falls in it too, is like you've been raised by a really horrible person, so you're living up to standards set by a really horrible person.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

But you're also it's not in your nature to be like that.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

To be a horrible person.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Yeah. You've just been trained that way. Like and you can be untrained that way. Yeah. It's almost like this could be an allegory for some other people out there, you know, some y young people who maybe grow up around where we live and have been taught a certain way of doing things, but it's not the right way, and maybe, you know, you you should try to take a look in the mirror and see if this is actually what you want.

unknown 31:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

You know, may maybe, you know. It's almost like it could apply to real life. Uh but who who could know? But it is that like Tien is like he's just not a bad guy. Like, it's he's being forced to be a bad guy, but in his heart of hearts, he's not. And that's why like he tried to overcorrect so hard at the beginning of the fight and tr screamed at Roshi, telling him, I am a killer, I'm gonna be the biggest killer of all time. And it's like Roshi's like, sure, whatever you say, man, I can see in your heart that you're not a killer. Like you're eyes, you don't have killer eyes. Like, you're you're you're not a killer. And him laying that in his mind and being like, listen, Shin, he sucks. I we were trained by the same master, and he sucks. Trust me, I've known him my whole life. He's a terrible person. You don't have to be him. Just because he trained you, just because he taught you some skills, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

And then and then we have like, you know, we even out the fight. Tian takes the hit. And then we have one of the coolest, most terrifying, like, techniques, I guess, that we've had pulled out. Like, I think it's uh I think uh Chia Tsu references it as like the three witches techniques. Or three witches, four witches, or something like that. Something witches' techniques. I missed the number. I think it was four.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Three or four. I think it's four because I mean it would make sense with the four arms. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yeah, probably four witches techniques. Where Tien like Roids out. I think does get slightly bigger. They like animated and be slightly bigger. Everybody keeps it gonna keep growing. Two arms out of his back and like now looks like um four arms from Ben Ten. No, I was gonna make a better reference.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

I was gonna say because the like the changing of his body really reminded me of like when Ben would hit the watch and turn into four arms, he's like, four Goro. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Goro for Mortal Kombat. Yeah. I blanked on his name. Because I I I I think that it might be kind of closer to what Goro was based off of was that type of stuff. It might be, yeah. Because I mean, four forearms might be based off of it too.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

I would say four arms is more based off of this than it being based off of four arms due to the fact that four arms didn't exist for like 20 years after this was.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Yeah, but I mean I mean like it's it's that thing where it's like it's that type of character where it's just like I'm excited to see what happens because the possibilities are quite endless when you have two extra arms. As the narrator says, like, Goku has been struggling to fight him with two arms. What's he gonna do with four? What's he gonna do against four?

SPEAKER_02 34:13

And so with that, Jesse, I have to go, unless you have any other notes. Uh no, that's my last note was really that's terrifying. I said, what the actual heck? Because we don't c curse on this pod. I said, what the actual heck? Um, so with that, we go into our predictions, Jesse. You want to know what your prediction was? Uh they've done it both wrong. Goku wins the fight. Not yet. Um, Tien has a moment of clarity. Yes. Yeah, I mean, yeah. He does have a moment of clarity because he he does just look at Shin and say, that's dishonorable. No, no, he says, that is dishonorable. I will not kill him. I want to win this fight. I will avenge Tao in my way, but I am not a killer. And that's a moment of clarity as far as that's a if that's not a moment of clarity, I don't know what is. You know?

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

And then the last one is Shin is mad because Tien turns against him. I do believe that that is the case. So, with that, Jesse, I will be deleting your your predictions, except for one I assume you're going to keep it.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Yeah, Goku's gonna win this fight.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Okay. And we'll keep Goku wins the fight.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

In hindsight, I should have guessed the fights wouldn't have ended these this episode. Yeah. I'm gonna go on to Lemon, assume the fight ends either at the very end of this the next episode next to the first of the two episodes we're fight watching.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

Or it ends like at the beginning, like before the mid-credit of the third, the second.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Alright. It's gonna end sometime. So you want to hear the names of the next two episodes. The last two episodes of the TN's Shinhan Saga.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

You know what?

SPEAKER_02 35:47

I don't really feel like it. Let me just make these predictions point. Okay, go for it then. Go for it.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

No, I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Please read them off. Number one, or le episode 100 is the spirit cannon. And episode 101 is the fallen. What do you think is gonna happen, Jesse?

SPEAKER_00 36:04

The spirit cannon? Yeah. I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume it's it's it's one of two things, and I'm gonna bet my all on one of those two things and hope that it's not the second one. Okay. Tien and Orgoku pulls out a technique called the spirit cannon. The other option that I'm not gonna go with is someone shows up with a spirit cannon. Like a weapon that is a spirit cannon starts like killing a bunch of people in the crowd or something. But I feel like that's not gonna happen. I feel like it's gonna have to be in the fight. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

And so, Jesse, with this with you guessing that Tian andor Goku pulls out a technique called the spirit cannon, hedging your bets there. Um, what do you think the fallen is going to mean?

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Um, well, we did kind of like I think I don't know if we spoiled it in the podcast episode or if we sworted it before we started. It's like I do know that like the end of these two episodes sets up like the big the next big bad like the first real big bad guy saga. Yeah, we did say it in the this podcast episode like about 20 minutes ago, DC. But yeah. My brain my my brain doesn't work that well very often sometimes. So like I was like, I can't remember if that was like right before we started recording or if you mentioned that like during one after we started recording. Yeah. But it's like, um so I'm gonna assume the fallen is in reference to whoever the next big bad guy is. Maybe it's like a like a fallen um we say because it's a big man. I'm gonna say fallen angel he has to fight. That's going on the limb. It could literally just be like some like bad guy from like another fighting clan or something.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

It could also just be that the fallen is just like the name of the bad guy. It could also just be like literally referencing maybe like one of them falls out of the sky in the fight, and that's why they're the fallen.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Like it could be any of the it could also just be like, oh, he has to fight a really angry, powered up Shin who fell back out of the sky. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

Could be he he the fallen is Shin is turned back evil again. He's ready to kill him. Or T any. Yeah, Tien. Shin's back and he's ready to kill Goku.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Um, it could be anything. That's the fun about these predictions when they're vague like that. And it's not Krillin fighting in the semis.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Uh Jackie versus Tien. I wonder what's gonna happen there.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

I wonder what's gonna happen. Oh, Jackie and Tien are gonna fight. Um, but yeah, Jesse, with that, I've already told my worst part. What is your worst part?

SPEAKER_00 38:45

I can't as you stated, there's not really like anything horrendous. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

For me, it is just that because it is bad. And because of Tien taking so long. Yeah, and and because it's one of those, like I I talked about with the animation that you can see the moments where they cheat a bit. Like, I don't care about that. If it doesn't get excessive, this is one of those moments where it's like if this was like if it were three times the set of five, I wouldn't have this problem. The fact it takes so long for him to figure it out brings that part down to the point where I can call it a bad part of the way.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

I mean it's it's hard for me to pick anything else because I that I I complained out loud about that while we were watching it the same thing, where it's just like, Dan, surely you figured this out like the second time. Yeah. Like we both had the same opinion on it, so I've like I can't really think of anything else to pick that like sucks. Okay. That's not just like me being silly, like, man, I really hated that they destroyed Roshi's sunglasses. Like that really sucked.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Speaking of Roshi's sunglasses, Jessica, you want to hear what my best part is and pull the sunglasses.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Goku pulled the sunglasses.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

What is your best part?

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Uh my best part is man. There's a lot of good stuff to pick.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

Like the sunglasses is good. I was gonna say, while you think I can talk about why I like the sunglasses and why it's my best part.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

You know what? I I'll I'll give it because I enjoyed it like how silly it was. Because obviously, I don't want to cop out and say all of the fighting parts, but all the fighting parts are amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

The animation's great.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

You know what? I'll I'll actually pick another uh the other Goku being smart moment, and I'll pick the him like not immediately launching. Actually, no, you know what I pick? I'll pick him recovering by shooting the Kamehameha into the ground so he doesn't uh ring out. Yeah. After getting launched from him in the air after Chiatsu freezes him, like I think that was like the third or fourth time he didn't.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

I think it was, yeah. I think it was the third. I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

I think it was the third time. No, he froze him.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

I'll pick out because that's actually like I think we've seen him do that before. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

We kind of because we've seen him propel himself with the command mail. We saw it against Krillin, where he like uses the command mail to shoot himself up into Krillin. So he does know he can use it as like a directional mover.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Yeah. So like it's cool to see him like do it to prevent himself, like barely catch himself before he hits the ground.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Yeah. So I like it. And uh with that, Jesse, you got anything else you want to talk about before we move to the end? Uh I'm just excited for these next two episodes. I am also excited for these new episodes.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

I'm also excited to like start the new saga, like have the new saga name and everything.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

After these next two episodes, after next week's episode, we will be watching the third movie. Which, if you are looking forward to it, we will have to look up the name because I don't remember it. Dragon Ball Movies. Um, Jesse, if you want to start closing this out while I look this up, if you know all the stuff, I think. I've said it enough.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

Just remember to uh like and like the podcast, give us a rating or review or anything. Maybe even a comment on the podcast. Uh remember to follow us at Becoming Saints Pod and I think uh literally basically everything. Becoming Saints Pod on Twitter, on Instagram, on TikTok, on YouTube. Anything that's normally used, like basically any social media that you might find anything on. Um I think it's be at becoming saintspod, like becomingsaintspod at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

It's just becomingsaints at gmail.com. I was testing you to see if you listen. And you always mock me, but you don't see this, but he's always like, uh-huh, and uh-huh, and uh-huh, as I'm saying it. So I wanted to see if he actually knew what I was saying during those moments, or if I just have a good cadence.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

I mean, I I had it right.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

Yeah, you were pretty close. It's one of those things where I'm just like, I I'm not the one repeating it every week. So um one thing you did forget to say is download subscribe rate review. Give us a five-star rating if you are feeling so lucky. And to name the third Dragon Ball movie, it is called Mystical Adventure. And that is the name of the third uh movie. Oh, yeah, it's it's also the one that you're not excited to watch. It's the one I'm not it's probably the least excited I've been about for one of these movies. And it'll be after our next week. So in two weeks after this episode, we will be showing you mystical adventures. For us, it's gonna be like a month before we watch it because we're doing a little bit behind the scenes. We're recording the last two episodes of this saga back to back. We're gonna we recorded this, we're gonna go watch the last two episodes, then we're gonna come back and record again. And then we're gonna check like three weeks off. Because Jesse is going to watch a movie next week. Um, the week after that, I will be in uh Nollins, or for you people who don't know what that means, New Orleans. Um apparently our Pokemon didn't get that reference. Yeah, uh our for the Pokemon tournament. And then the week after that, we'll I think we'll be back. I don't quite think there's any problems that next week. So we'll probably be back next week. Not yet. Well But there's a chance we have enough in the chamber. We have enough queued up that like we will I'll be able to. So you're you're gone.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

I'm gonna be gone next week.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Yeah, and just for like some hindsight, today is May twenty eighth as we're recording this. So you pr you actually um I'll have to talk to you about something later. Okay. Um yeah, we we have enough like queued up that we're gonna be okay because this is This is May for us it's May twenty-eighth. For you guys, it's gonna be like the week that I'm in New Orleans. Yeah. Like it so, like, we'll be okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

This will not affect anything that you guys will be saying.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

And as we're talking about this, we do want to bring up we will be in Kansas City on June 27th to go watch the World Cup. If you guys also like soccer and you want to hit us up, we'll be there and we'll probably buy you a drink or something, you know? Just buy a beer. Tell us where you're at and we'll we'll meet we'll we'll try to schedule a restaurant or something.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

I guess we should say if we can legally buy you a beer, we will buy you a beer. Yeah. Yeah. If not, we'll buy you like a Coke or something. What's the official An alphematizer? What's the official because usually Coke sponsors FIFA. They still come from the World Cup. Yeah. We'll buy you a Coke. We'll buy you whatever the official uh drink sponsor that's not an alcohol, alcoholic beverage, is of the World Cup, which I believe is almost always Coke in the last like 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

I think it's been Coke since like I've seen the Coca-Cola, like the Coca-Cola at the World Cup at Walmart. So I think that is it.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Yeah, so I think it's I think it's been Coke since like the nineties. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

But with all that, I would like to say once again, thank you for listening. And I've been Truman. And I've been Jesse. And the journey continues.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Bye.