Becoming Saiyans-A Dragon Ball re-watch podcast
Join Trueman as he shows Jessie the world of Dragon Ball, two episodes at a time. New episodes every Thursday at 6am EST. Artwork by Tenshiart. Email us at becomingsaiyans@gmail.com
Becoming Saiyans-A Dragon Ball re-watch podcast
Stepping Krillin: Episodes 94-95
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Tien vs Jackie reaches the epic conclusion and Krillin starts his brawl with Goku!
Art by TenshiArts
Welcome to Becoming Saiyans, a Dragon Ball Rewatch podcast. And we're back. I'm Truman. And I'm Jesse. And this is Becoming Saiyans, a Dragon Ball Rewatch Podcast. On today's episode, we watched episodes 94 and 95 of Dragon Ball, titled Stepping Down and Goku vs. Krillin. And the first episode came out in Japan on December 30th, 1987. And in America, it came out on December 19th, 2002. While the next episode, Goku vs. Krillin, came out on January 6th, 1988, and in America on December 20th, 2002. Jumping into some differences from the manga and some trivia. Some of the differences from the manga is the whole scene at Papaya Hospital with the nurse getting the radio and everything is there, but it does explain the appearance of the radio in the manga where they just have it after everything going on, you know. Like later on, during later parts, they show them with the radio, but they don't really explain it. Yeah. Uh in the manga. Tien and Jackie's fight is expanded at the start, with the former jumping into the air, all the stuff that like the fights just expanded a bit. Uh Bulma launched Puar, not there, they're with Yamsha. Um and that Bullman Pu'ar's remarks that Tien's was uh Kamehameha was scary were said in the manga by random tournament spectators. In the manga, Jackie is able to get back up on a five count, but uh here in the anime it took almost hit the full ten count. In the anime, Shin tricks Jackie into revealing himself, blah blah blah, but that doesn't happen. Um in the anime, Shin uses the telepathy to do other stuff, but in the manga he tells him the normal way. Um some trivia for this episode is Tien di uh dives down towards Jackie. His stance is very similar to the Nom crossarm dive, which I I kind of noticed that too. I picked it up, yeah. But it also might be a callback to Tien beating the crap out of Nom in the preliminaries, just like how he also, you know, steals the Kamehameha. Like he's just being like, I'm gonna use your own tricks against you and the tricks of your friends. I I I learned by literally watching one time, which is kind of a Goku thing as well. Yeah. Uh in the Japanese version, Goku asks Krillin how the announcer was able to see Tien's kick while the blinding solar flare was in effect. Where Krillin, you know, responds that he must have been due to the sunglasses. And the English dub uh changed to why Jackie was taking Tien or was talking to Tien so much and that he was too tired to continue the match, and that Krillin responded with Jackie being invincible and it was part of the plan. The woman who Jackie sees in the crowd uh is the muscular lady from Goku's Rival, and also later on in the final blow, or you know, later on in the show when l in the first tournament saga.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00In the English version, when Jackie tells Tien that he's making a mistake serving Shin, uh Tien barks back that he's correct him on. And the Jackie uh or the Japanese version, Jackie asks Tien if he's gonna show him a dirty magazine, and Tien rebukes by saying, Why would I have such things? Which valid. Why would Tien Tien's still not an adult fully grown to the point where he's an old man and can buys those things, which is like canonical every old man in this this universe has them, it seems. Every old man we have an extended period of time with is a it's kind of pervy. Uh differences from the manga, Jackie is shown walking out of the arena arena and passing upset fans and cheering up a girl, all of that's added to the uh anime, you know, that whole part. Before the match starts, non-combatants discuss who the winner of the match will be. Launch saying uh in the Japanese version that since Goku has more experience, like he's obvious it's gonna win be him. But this isn't in the manga because we already talked about it during the last thing. But only Oolong and Turtle are there. Um as a side effect, Oolong and Turtle's musings are that this will be a great match, uh, were replaced with all of that, you know. Um there's a panel in the manga where some of the spectators watch in Oz, Goku and Krillin's match that's replaced with the gang cheering them on. So instead of the some of the random spectators being like, ooh, wow. Like Colonel Sanders, which we pointed out. Um Crolin's flashback to his training is not there. Uh Roshi's uh pathos over his cousin Jackie Chung dying are more evident in the anime. Also, before he tells Tien the reasons for Jack for him hiring Jackie can fight in the tournament. He sneezes, blows his nose, all that stuff is added to the manga. Or added from the manga. Um there's a song that's played one last time when they start to fight seriously in the Japanese version. The English dub didn't use it, but since we didn't watch it, we don't know that. Uh, and that's all we have as far as m differences and trivia. So, previously on Dragon Ball. The match continues between Jackie and Tien, with Tien showing that he has great strength, but also not being able to crack Jackie. Um, when suddenly Shin starts to notice some weird things that are going on, and then decides to brainwash Jackie Chun into um looking at the women and then making him believe that he is Master Roshi in disguise. Whereas we're Master Roshi, which is actually Jackie Chung who's been brainwashed, steps off of the ring and steps out of the match, ending the match. Um in the second episode, Goku and Krillin start warming up while Tien has an existential crisis in front of Roshi, and also Jackie Chung rests in peace, got killed off screen, and we never saw him again. And that's what you missed on Dragon Ball, Jesse. Go for it.
SPEAKER_01Um So we can stop the Jackie Chung bit, right?
SPEAKER_00No, I just explained it, Jesse.
SPEAKER_01No, we can stop it.
SPEAKER_00Look, I even wrote it down. Dang it! Shen brainwashed Jackie into believing he was Roachy. And then later on, it's like, wait, Jackie Chung died? Well, BS, they kill off one of the best characters off screen. No, um So he brings out his cousin to beat up his students, and then when he decides to give up, he just dies? What are we talking about?
SPEAKER_01Jackie Chung man literally too Roshi to die. He he just vanished. He got thanos out of existence when he walked up. Well, actually, no, we we saw what happens when we he put him in a suitcase.
SPEAKER_00Oh, well no, he put what was r the remains of Jackie into a suitcase before he could build a memorial shrine for him.
SPEAKER_01On Roshi. No. Because Jackie failed him. There you go. That's a good explanation. So then Jackie.
SPEAKER_00And so then Roshi's going to build a Jackie shrine on Roshi's uh five-star hotel he's building. It'll be the Jackie Memorial Hotel. Yeah, and the Jackie, the Jackie Chun Memorial Hotel. It's where all the second place fighters go.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01No, these are actually like, again, pretty good episodes. I I will say there is some f there is like fluff to them, obviously. Like we listed off the fact that there was fluff to them. Yeah. But the fluff is enjoyable, fluff. Yeah. It's very world-built exactly.
SPEAKER_00The only problem I had as far as fluff was the whole flashback to Krillin, but I also didn't feel like it was it didn't last too long and it didn't seem uber unnecessary.
SPEAKER_01It didn't last too long, and it also kind of filled in the gaps that we didn't get to see them doing stuff when they were flashing around during those episodes where we were mostly following Goku before the tournament.
SPEAKER_00We see that Krillin really did put in the words.
SPEAKER_01Like he those it was an impressive montage of him training himself with himself and also that's pretty crazy.
SPEAKER_00That's like Goku level.
SPEAKER_01It's it's why wouldn't you flash back between like the fight and what uh the conversation Roshi and Tin are having where it's like, oh no, like this is actually a pretty even fight so far.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's like, no, it makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Um and then we have like uh my first my notes are start out with, yeah, these are good episodes. I enjoy these episodes. They're not the best of the best, but they the they're very again, like we like to say, high floor, not that high ceiling, you know, mid-size ceiling.
SPEAKER_01They're not going to blow a slight a slightly higher, high mid-size ceiling. Yeah. Because like the fighting scenes in the in these episodes.
SPEAKER_00I wrote down, I wrote down a lot, like, man, some good fight, like some good fight choreography, this or some good fighting. Like in both fights.
SPEAKER_01This is what you would this is like this is the type of level you expect in like a semifinal of any sort of tournament. And no matter the sport or if you're watching a video game competition, like you expect it to be this competitive.
SPEAKER_00And also very limited amount of special moves, you know? Like it's just it's just people going at it like dogs. Because, like, yes, like does uh TN use the solar flare and then a Kamehameha on Jackie? Yes. That's like the finishing move. Yeah, he uses the Kamehameha as basically a finisher. And he uses the solar flare as his like first finisher that he's thinking he's gonna win with. It just doesn't happen to work, you know.
SPEAKER_01It's gonna have to work because Jackie slash Roshi is like built different.
SPEAKER_00Jackie is built different.
SPEAKER_01I I I'm so tired of this this bit. What bit? This bit.
SPEAKER_00The fact that Jackie is a real character by himself that Roshi knows because it's his cousin and that he knows loves to fight and he brings them out every few days.
SPEAKER_01It's gonna be real funny when people listen to this episode and they're like, that's our first message are gonna be from this episode. She's like, just end it already. End the bit.
SPEAKER_00There's no bit. It's true. Dang it, Jesse.
SPEAKER_01It's like we see the TikTok comment on one of the videos that we posted that was a clip of you talking about how Jackie's a good how Roshi's a good uh cousin to Jackie, and someone was like, What are they talking about? Like, what is this?
SPEAKER_00He's like, well, maybe you should watch the episodes and you'll see how Jackie is a great fighter and Roshi's a great cousin. Okay. And teacher, to be fair. And teacher and sensei and say master.
SPEAKER_01It's like it's the moments where he has with like Tien in these episodes where it's like, okay, yeah, this is why people like Roshi.
SPEAKER_00Before we get there, I do want to continue along. Yeah. Um just really good, like, because at one point, like, Tien has pushed Roshi to the edge of the of the ring.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Roshi's literally like like he's hanging off the edge, and then he's like just like the front half of his foot is on is in the ring still.
SPEAKER_00So then so then yeah, Jackie climbs back and he gets in like an arm lock with Tien. And I was like, that is some strong strategy. I kept yelling, he's gonna full a Bowser move uh on on Tien because like if you guys know Super Smash Bros, uh Bowser has uh his up B his like his is like a well his it's yeah, grapple plus up B because you grab the person and then you jump up into the air and then you slam down into the ground and you die, but also they die first because they're underneath you. And so, like the way like I way you can cheese people if they don't know it very well is you can grab them at the edge of the ring and then just jump off the ring three times in a row and you win because like they can't really break out of it, and then you get to take them down with you, and it's like your death happens right after their death, so you don't lose. Yeah. Um, just in case you guys didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01And so I thought that's a really it's a really funny strategy that will not work in an actual comp competitive setting because you know people are prepared for it.
SPEAKER_00And also Bowser doesn't get used in competitive because he's too slow.
SPEAKER_01He sucks, yeah.
SPEAKER_00He's not a good character. He's he's fun to play with when you're playing on like a wild, like eight-player match or whatever, but when you're going one-on-one with somebody, Bowser's just too slow to like fight, like hold on, you know. Yeah, um, but this is not Super Smash Bros. Super Smash Bros. I don't know enough about the game to be able to have a podcast about that. But what I do know a lot about is Dragon Ball and Jackie being an amazing fighter, and also passing out some sage wisdom, which is like kind of out of character for him, sort of, but also not really because he does like to pass out wisdom and he's so much like Roshi.
SPEAKER_01It's so it's so crazy.
SPEAKER_00I mean, cuz great cousins think alike.
SPEAKER_01I know, man. I don't know. It's almost like they're like in each other's mind all the time. Yeah. They probably like it's like they're the same person.
SPEAKER_00They probably talk a lot, you know. Like they have they jump on the phone, they chat.
SPEAKER_01Well, we never we never see them talking together because they're never in the same place at the same time. It's off screen and they're talking through phones. Obviously. I know I'm not gonna win, but I just want to be as annoying as possible. And then the neck the next This is gonna be our least listened to episode because it's just us two silent, like having a cold war over who's right. Even though I know I'm right.
SPEAKER_00No, you're not. We have no proof that you are right.
SPEAKER_01We have literally an ep like an episode of proofs.
SPEAKER_00Circumstantial evidence does not count in this body of law. You're also working on circumstantial evidence. I'm working on facts, dang it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, factually circumstantial evidence.
SPEAKER_00Unfortunately, he passed away before we could ask him any questions. Before we could ask him any questions. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01He conveniently died off screen, so we never had. I know, it's it's freaking BS.
SPEAKER_00It's so such bull archy that they would kill off this important character.
SPEAKER_01And then Roshi loaded up all of his possessions in a suitcase.
SPEAKER_00So he can build a memorial at Roshi Island.
SPEAKER_01He's gonna build a build a museum.
SPEAKER_00It's like Jason Todd in Bat in the Bat Cave. They have a Jason Cogs.
SPEAKER_01Oh, well then that means he's gonna come back. Because if he's just Jason Todd, he might come back.
SPEAKER_00We can use the Dragon Balls to wish him back. Yeah. And then we'll have two Roshis and we won't know what to do with them. No, we'll have one Roshi and one.
SPEAKER_01Well, we just said Jackie and Roshi are basically alike, so then we'll have two.
SPEAKER_00Well no, Jackie will just go back to the mountains to train.
SPEAKER_01Maybe they can meet each other.
SPEAKER_00No, because Jackie will just go back to the mountains to train until the next martial arts train.
SPEAKER_01They'll be on screen because they I at least once, because they do revive in front of you.
SPEAKER_00That is true. We could we could see that, so. Um my next note. My next note is T and Shin Han use flash. Jackie's evasion was lowered. Jackie's, I think it's accuracy. Is it accuracy? It's evasion. Uh flash lowers evasion because you can't move because it's too bright.
SPEAKER_01I could have sworn it was accuracy.
SPEAKER_00No. It's evasion.
SPEAKER_01But you you're the competitive Pokemon. But also Flash is not a competitive Pokemon movie. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Flash does no damage and it just it just lowers your evasion.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna Google this real quick. I could have sworn as a kid it lowered accuracy.
SPEAKER_00I'm like 95% sure. This is the googling moment of the podcast.
SPEAKER_01Uh lowest lowers the target's accuracy. Oh dang, it does lower accuracy. Yeah, flash lowers the target's accuracy. Yeah, in generations one to three, it has a 70% accuracy, 70% chance to hit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's listen, we don't need to talk about Gen 1 as well.
SPEAKER_01Oh, oh the Z move uh raises evasiveness one stage in addition to its usual accuracy low. Okay. So that like doubles doubles the effect.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, but anyways, back to this. I just really thought that was a fun, like a good moment where he just like blinds the entire, which is also a crazy move to be able to have.
SPEAKER_01Like to just be able to have. It's also the most inconvenient move for someone to do in the middle of a fighting tournament when people are trying to enjoy the fight. Yeah, flashbang the entire arena for like 30 seconds.
SPEAKER_00Luckily, the announcers seemed to know what was going on because he had sunglasses. He was ready for it.
SPEAKER_01Um stunned for a little bit though.
SPEAKER_00And that's when Jackie right out right when Jackie is on the ground and he's getting the tin count and he gets up. This is the first moment where Jackie is able to get between the ears of T Hand. Yeah. He like is he he's he's getting to him. He says like the whole thing of like, yeah, you're just not you're using uh it's like you know how like you like you can't let the rage fuel you because you're you're not you're not gonna be able to beat me like that. You're not thinking about your moves, and in that case, you're you're just a you know a a dumb brawler.
SPEAKER_01I can You're just a brute at this point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're not you're not gonna be able to win like this. And like at one point, Tien's like, I did enough to hit you, and he's like, Yeah, but not enough to knock me out. So um Not enough to win.
SPEAKER_01That's the difference.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We can stand at a stalemate for as long as you want, and then eventually Jackie just steps out. But not before uh Shin pulls out a dastardly mind control trick. And this is where Shin tells Jackie that there's lovely ladies that are cheering for him. So Jackie turns around to look, and that's when Shin's able to get into his brain and think make him think that he is Roshi. And because of that, now we have two Roshis canonically, because we have Roshi that's in the bathroom, he's been in a long line using the bathroom, and then we have Jackie, who's now been brainwashed into believing that he's his cousin Roshi. And it's absolutely ridiculous. I can't believe that they allow this to go on. These this dirty tricks and this tomfoolery. Don't you believe that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, no. It's it's like it's easy.
SPEAKER_00Just I'm laying it all out for you. You're laying it all out for me, but it's it's wrong. My math is concrete. My evidence is insurmountable. Does or does not Shin speak to Jackie in his mind?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he speaks to Jackie in his mind, being like, I know that you're Roshi, you idiot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that that right there sounds like hypnotic suggestion, Jesse. He's hypnotizing Jackie into believing he's Roshi. And what would Roshi do when faced upon uh or faced with a opponent such as Tien? He would pull some Tom Fullery, like giving up the fight so that he could try to get it, you know, influence him in some way. This just all sounds like what Roshi would do in this situation. Which almost like it's almost like he's Roshi, which is why the hypnotic suggestion works so well. He's able to hypnotize Jackie and believe in he's Roshi, and then he starts to act like Roshi. I can't believe this.
SPEAKER_01I one of these days I'm gonna bring some white out, and I'm just gonna white out Jackie Chun on that pop figure you have behind you.
SPEAKER_00Oh yes, oh yes, let's not forget that Jackie has his own. And I'm gonna put I'm gonna put JC Jackie parentheses Roshi Chun. Which we also have a Master Roshi Funko Pop. That's exhibit A. That's irrefutable proof that there are two separate characters here, Jesse. And I I can't believe it. But anyways, if you're not following along, Jackie does.
SPEAKER_01I don't think anyone's following along at this point. Jackie does like everyone, I think everyone turned it off the first time we had this conversation. So Jackie steps out of the ring. Our listen time's gonna be in the floor. It's gonna be in the basement.
SPEAKER_00I'm telling you, Jackie Chung, he exists in the hearts and minds of all the true believers. Um but Jackie does give up at the end of the day. And he steps out of the ring, and that's the end of the first episode. So, going into the second episode, we see that Jackie is walking off into the sunset, apparently to get killed by somebody.
SPEAKER_01Honestly, at this point, if we're if we're really just going strong with it, he's probably gonna like what is it, seppuku or whatever?
SPEAKER_00Oh no, no, I got it, I got it. Theorycrafting. He is since you want to believe that he's Roshi so much, okay? There's no proof for that. But since you want to believe that he is Roshi so much, what if he is a manifestation of all of Roshi's fighting prowess? And the moment that Roshi or that Jackie loses, he ceases to exist because he was just all of all of uh Roshi's fighting, and since now Jackie has been defeated, that means he's no longer like Roshi, and so now he ceased to exist. And then he becomes Colonel Sanders. Yeah, and then he becomes Colonel Sanders.
SPEAKER_01Who's the problem with the problem with that? I think Colonel Sanders shows up in the the Jackie Chun fight, though.
SPEAKER_00So no, Colonel Sanders shows up uh and between the Goku right before the Goku Krillin fight. Because it's in that second episode.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know what? And then he became Colonel Sanders. Because he lost all the Roshi within him. Yeah. So then he just became like a little white mustache and white hair.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, he walks off into the sunset, and then um that's all we have of Jackie Chung gone too soon. Gone but not forgotten.
SPEAKER_01We could okay, we can all agree he became he became Colonel Sanders after losing all the aspects of Roshi. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00After losing after losing that the character who was Jackie, who had been molded by Roshi's fighting prowess. Well, it turns out to actually be Colonel Sanders.
SPEAKER_01Yep. He created Kentucky Fried Chicken. Looking good. And he sell he's he sold it so good on Christmas that now it's like an official Japanese Christmas Day meal. Yeah. It's just getting big old big old KFC family mill. But Christmas. Which is a real thing. You can Google it and look it up. Oh no, I I know about this. I w I wanna I wanna like do the ADHD thing and go off on another tangent about cur a KFC, but I don't feel like I should.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we we've alre you've already thought me too much on this Jackie Chung thing.
SPEAKER_01But it's so it involves a statue of Colonel Sanders and a curse on a football clip. Really funny.
SPEAKER_00We we don't have time for it right now. If you want to bring up if you won wanna bring up soccer stuff, Jesse. I can bring up soccer stuff for you. It starts with the letter A. We should probably get back to the episode. It starts with the letter A. We should get back to the episode. Yeah, that's what I thought. Um, so then we see Tien having like a a Kylo Ren Darth Vader freak out montage where he's just so angry, he's just punching and kicking stuff.
SPEAKER_01Just wasting water.
SPEAKER_00If Nom if Nam was still conscious, he would be so mad. Yeah, if Nam was still with us, he would be devastated with all this water. He's alive, he's just probably still in a coma. Yeah. But all the water that's being wasted in this moment is insane.
SPEAKER_01Um Tien just became an AI data center for a second.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um just so wasteful. And then we have uh the the whole lead up to the Goku and Krillin. So the most of this episode is Goku and Krillin, like the pre l pre-start to the fight, like the sizing up, the crowd shots, all that stuff. Some very little fighting at the end is kind of the A plot of the episode. Because that episode's titled Goku versus Krillin, so therefore this has to be the A plot. Yeah. But the B plot of this episode is where the real fun stuff happens.
SPEAKER_01It's hard, it's hard to argue what the A plot is. I will say I think the Goku Krillin like actually fighting gets a little bit more screen time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it's it's it's close, and the reason I'm given the edge to the name of the name of the episode, that's obviously what they meant to be the A plot of the episode.
SPEAKER_01But I I will say the B plot that we're as we're calling it on this episode, is as we stated, a reason why people love Roshi as a character.
SPEAKER_00So after Tien has his has his like emo kid breakdown where he punches and kicks a bunch of stuff, he hunts down Roshi, who is mourning the loss of his dear friend Jackie, who'd ceased to exist as soon as he got out of the state.
SPEAKER_01Well, he must try to saw him transform into Colonel Sanders.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but all he saw was his hair piece in his robes. Yeah. And so it's a very sad.
SPEAKER_01It's crazy he was hiding that white suit underneath white suit and bow tie.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No, it's once he ceased to have become Jackie, all that fell off, and then he was reformed as Colonel Sanders. He had like a sailor he had like a Sailor Moon magical girl transformation.
SPEAKER_01But anyways, we see how to cook really good, uh really good stuff.
SPEAKER_00But we see uh Roshi mourning the loss there, and then Tien walks up and says, Hey, why'd you give up? Like, was it because you couldn't beat me or was it because of something else? And then Roshi sneezes into it, uh into a napkin or sneezes, then blows his nose into a napkin and gives it to him, and his line is outside of some why outside of some wisdom, this is all I can give you. And it's like, what?
SPEAKER_01And then Tien just throws it on the ground as a litter bug, and then it rolls away, and Roshi's is like, oh no one stepped on that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then we get into it where Tien like goes at him basically being like, Why? Why this whole roost? Why imbue Colonel Sanders with your fighting power so he can fight in here? And he says, Well, you see, the whole thing with this tournament is that it's it's not very good. There should be age limits and that kind of thing, so that you don't have like he doesn't say that, but like the the cannot the next steps logically would be like there should be some age division, some sort of differentiator. Because there's no reason with how strong Goku Krillin Goku and Krillin are, they could win any of these tournaments. Like if if if one of them didn't show up, the other one would win, more likely than not.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so being able to like telling them that they're the greatest fighter in the world would shatter their their drive and their motivation and their like their will to get stronger.
SPEAKER_01In theory.
SPEAKER_00In theory. We know that like Goku, because and this is something that comes out later on, which I think you know, is like when the his alien race is a warrior race, so like they're like genetically want to fight somebody. They always are wanting something stronger, a better challenge.
SPEAKER_01Like they're genetic, like it's in their DNA to always want to overcome the next challenge. Yeah. Like there's there's always something they want to set their mind to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're like, Well, I might be the strongest character in this on this world, but there's other worlds out there. Maybe there's somebody stronger than me. I might be the strongest character in this universe, but there's a multiverse. Maybe there's somebody stronger out there besides me. Like, that that's the whole thing, is like they they're never satisfied with their strength, and they're even if they like, you know, later on with another character who shows up, it's like, even if like Goku knows he's stronger than that person, he also knows that person is trying a million times harder, and so I gotta try a billion times harder. Yeah, because they're going to try to catch me and I can't let them. Yeah like um and that's that's the next thing on the list there. But like let's say that Goku doesn't show up because he runs late one time and misses the like he almost missed it this this time. If Goku misses the registration and Tien and Chiatsu like weren't there, Krillin would win this tournament. What do you think that would do to his ego? He already is a cocky son of a gun. Like, if he was then titled the or named the greatest fighter in the entire world, like he would probably start wrestling on his laurels. Yeah, he would rest on his laurels, and then the next time some world-shattering entity shows up, he wouldn't be ready.
SPEAKER_01Or like just like a world threat, like the Red Ribbon Army or something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he wouldn't be ready. Like and that's like the whole conceit, which this is the conceit for Roshi slash Jackie last turn, like last tournament. The whole reason why Roshi like called up his cousin Jackie or imbued Colonel Sanders with the power last tournament was so that like they would be able to stop this. But now it's even like Roshi like looks and Jackie's able to sense that like I can't beat Goku. Like I can't even beat UTN. Like I might be able to I might be able to win, but at what cost, you know? And so being able like looking in and like he's like, I gave up not because I couldn't beat you, but because I couldn't beat him, and I know you might be able to. But you gotta get your head on straight, basically. Which is like constant like he's given him like a bunch of non-answers and like a way that's like sage wisdom. Like he's given him the right answer, but not in the way that he wants to hear it.
SPEAKER_01He's doing the classic thing that like as a teacher you wanna do, where you're like, I'm not gonna give you the answer, but I'm gonna give you everything I can for you to get the right answer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because like my fav my favorite one is is he's like, um, I have a joke written down about it too. Um, but it's like before we tell the joke, we'll come back to the joke. Yeah. But it's like Roshi being uh telling him like you are not a killer. Like you all you you want to kill people for sure, but you're not a killer because you have a conscience. And he like he brings up like Tao, or he like Tian brings up, I want to be better than Tao. And he's like, Well, yeah, Tao was a killer, maybe a natural born killer, like might be the best killer of all time, like, on this earth, but you don't have that ability because you have a soul. Like, Tao does not have a soul, he lost his soul way before your age.
SPEAKER_01Tao was willing to kill two children that he just met after killing the father of one of them. Yeah. You Tao you don't have that ruthlessness.
SPEAKER_00They're not built like that, and that's for the better.
SPEAKER_01Like, what made Tao so good is that he was willing to kill kids if they got in his way.
SPEAKER_00But what uh Tienn hears is is that a challenge? I can be a killer, this is the third eye of the killer Roshi. Which is a a joke about like this is the skin of a killer bell.
SPEAKER_01You would you would laugh way harder if you heard us or if you're a part of the conversation before we started watching this episode, because we were talking about Robert Patton.
SPEAKER_00And if that intrigues you, you should know. Before we watched the episodes and then started recording, we talked for about 45 minutes to an hour just about random crap.
SPEAKER_01Oh, like eating.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just like random crap, whatever was going on, just general tom foolery. Which we would be more than willing to let you guys listen to if that was something you would want. We can add some of that to the beginning of the episode. We could do some preamble to the beginning of the episode.
SPEAKER_01I do I will also state here where it's like we've kind of set out to just do this as like an anime rewatch podcast. So that feels like more of like if there is ever a time where there we had enough people listening and like we had the ability to like make extras. Yeah. That could be like an extra thing we make where maybe every month we sit down and like talk about stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'd be down for that, like a bonus episode. Of just like random crap.
SPEAKER_01Even if it's like years in the future, we have like we have like a Patreon and that's like a Patreon thing. It's like you have a monthly bonus just chit-chat question and answer thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would love to do a mailbag episode. Yeah. We'd have to have mail to do a mailbag episode.
SPEAKER_01Or or just questions. Like that's why I'm like, well, yeah, if we have the if we have a point where we set up a Patreon, we could have Patreon questions like that.
SPEAKER_00But I was saying, when I say mailbag, I mean like just anything out there. Like we already brought up the one TikTok comment we got that was like, what are you guys talking about?
SPEAKER_01What is you talking about? Which was it made me laugh more than it should have. Like I saw that, I saw that, I saw that comment. I'm like, that dude gets it. Yeah, he doesn't get it, but he gets it. He he d he gets what we're going for, but he doesn't understand. He he didn't ask for this TikTok to come across his TikTok page, but he listened enough to leave a comment. And you know what? That's more than probably most people who saw that TikTok.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so then jumping back into it though, uh, Roshi is like fully getting in between the ears of Tian here. He is psychologically like trying to break this guy.
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't necessarily think like I think psychologically.
SPEAKER_00Not in like a bad way, but he's planting seed, like he's trying to break him because he needs to be broken, so he'll be open to change. Not like in like a way, like you know, normally when you hear somebody say they're trying to psychologically break somebody, they're meaning it in like a uh evil way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like Roshi's kind of doing the thing that Goku does on accident, but he's doing it on purpose. Yeah. Because I I truly feel we are setting it up for a situation where like in the final, like when he's fighting Goku, it's gonna hit him. Like he's gonna finally understand what Roshi has told him in this moment. That's like an e that's an early prediction here. Like, obviously, I have him and Goku fighting in the final. Yeah. Goku winning the next episode against Krillin and having a good like two episodes against Tien. Maybe longer. It could be longer. Yeah. But it's like it's setting up for that moment where it's like he's gonna have that epiphany moment in the middle of fighting Goku. Yeah. Where he's like Roshi's just planting, he's planting those seeds and he's he's betting on that fight sowing the seeds.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And and like, yeah, it's just T like Roshi is constantly being like, You are great. We could use somebody like you in this universe. Right now, as far as superheroes go in this universe, we got Goku and his sidekick Krillin. Yamcha was on the list, like as like a B list Justice Leader.
SPEAKER_01But you broke his leg, dang him. It's like there's there's two things going on, Yamcha. You broke his leg, and he also was kind of mostly there to take on the other, like, weakest psychic. Yeah. But and then And then you have me, who like I am slowly not getting to the level I need to now.
SPEAKER_00The levels of villainy are reaching and surpassing levels I can reach. Yeah. And we've got your buddy Chiatsu, which I assume if you went good, we would get him too. And that would be nice to fill out a nice roster of people to help fight. Unfortunately for us, we gotta get you there first. But it's like there's a war coming. We need we need as many soldiers as possible. And he's like, screw you guys, I'm gonna do my own thing. I'm gonna go kill people. I'm gonna be the like the strongest killer ever. I'll show you, I'll kill so many people. That's basically as Roshi's walking away, that's basically what Tien's yelling at him. And Roshi's like, uh-huh, sure, whatever you say, Mr. Killer Man, you know better than me. And he's like, You're right, I'm a killer. I'm gonna be the biggest killer of all time. And then we can jump back to the fight, because that's basically in between like the rounds of the fight.
SPEAKER_01I uh this conversation has happened kind of back and forth through a couple, like one or two flashes back and forth. Yeah. Of a very neck and neck fight between Goku and Krillin. But the beginning, like the setup where like it's like the drums start playing, that was so epic. Like the drum beats. We see we see Colonel Sanders. We see old like Colonel Sanders affied Jackie Chun now. Yeah. That that's that's our true, that's our true headcanon now.
SPEAKER_00He's able to become Colonel Sanders. He's able to watch and be able to say, That's my boys.
SPEAKER_01That's my boys.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Their finger-looking good. Yeah, I wrote that, I read I made a joke, like it's gonna be a finger-looking good match. Yeah. Um, but then we get it. We Krillin gets a good move. Krillin gets a couple good moments in this fight where he gets to kick uh Goku so hard they replay it three times, and he's like sending Goku catapulting towards the ground. But then uh Goku gets a superhero landing there, and then he goes to like as Tien gets back, like this is as Tien's walking back into the arena.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he sees Goku get launched from like high up high from by Krillin and land this and then like go to launch a counterattack.
SPEAKER_00And this is where uh we bring back Super Smash Bros. Who knew this was gonna be a Super Smash Bros. con uh uh podcast today, but uh Krillin pulls off a Jigglypuff or uh Kirby move. Because in those games, both of those characters like suck in a lot of air to float some more. Yeah, and then Krillin does the same thing, he sucks in a bunch of airs fall.
SPEAKER_01Slow as fall, so Goku misses. Yeah. Because Goku goes through like a like a high jump kick.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, instead of just pulling a nom where he like as soon as like Krillin's near the ground, just side swiping them out of the marina. Yeah, he goes for like the killer blow in the mid mid-air, um, trying to end it faster, apparently. But Krillin is able to do a jiggly puff Kirby move and just float safely, and then they just keep brawling back and forth.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And this is where we also cut to Roshi again, where he's standing on his staff perfectly posed, like above the crowd watching, and it's like he's a proud papa. He's like he even gives like a smirk, like, hmm, look at these guys. I train these I train these guys. I done good. These are my first like re uh trainees in a while, and they're doing great. A very long time. Yeah. Um, and then the last thing that gets said in this episode before we cut to black, basically, is uh Tim looking and seeing Roshi and being like, oh, you want me to be a hero? Well, I'll show you how much of an anti-hero you can be. And this is where I wrote down anti-hero still is a hero. Like they still have their moments. Yeah, like uh Punisher is still a hero, even though he is a murderer. He is also uh like a killer or a hero. Yeah. Deadpool is an assassin, but he's also a hero. Like when the chips are down, they make the right decision. And so, with that, that's all I have for the episode, unless you've got something. I'll say that.
SPEAKER_01No, I mean we we we hit most everything that I that I had written down. Like we hit it exactly how I wrote it down, but we hit the point that I was making with it. Which which which which one was that? Like it you like just talking about like him being like, I'm gonna be a killer and how anti-heroes are all uh like like you can be an anti-hero, that's fine. That's better, that's better than you are right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's better than being a villain. Like, we'll take that. We take those. It's like from the from 30 Rock, we count those, those are us. Yes, and so Jesse, with that, I guess then we'll get into our prediction segment. Um, where you uh kid you predicted that Jackie would concede, you were wrong because brainwashed Jackie, who was Roshi at the time, conceded.
SPEAKER_01He effectively conceded.
SPEAKER_00I'm joking, I'm joking.
SPEAKER_01If you don't want to count it, I'm not gonna take it. But like he did exactly he did that, but like in the most roundabout way he could.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was just joking. And then in Goku versus Krillin, you said that was only gonna be part one of a two-part fight. You were also Oh, is that correct? Um I'm learning. Yeah. So Jesse, looking at episode 96 and 97, do you want to hear the titles of these episodes? Uh yes, please. It's called Tales Tale. Like Tail, like the the the thing. Tale Apostrophe S. Tale, like the story. Tell tale. Well, it's tail, like the tale. Like Yeah, tell tale. Yeah. Tales tell.
SPEAKER_01Tales tell.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So like it's the tales tell. Yeah, it's like the the s the story that is being told by the tales. Yeah. What's on second? Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um I hope you get that. I hope audience gets that. If you don't, ask your parents.
SPEAKER_00And if they don't, ask your grandparents.
SPEAKER_01And if they don't, I guess just give up.
SPEAKER_00And if they don't, there's this magical mystical thing called YouTube.
SPEAKER_01And if they don't play the full skit, just like go to out of blockbuster.
SPEAKER_00It's on the full the full skid is on YouTube. I've watched it multiple times. Great skid.
SPEAKER_01Great skid.
SPEAKER_00Um, but then episode 97 is called Final Match. Goku versus TN. So Jesse, what do you think is gonna happen? Well I saw that and I was like, well, this is gonna be this is gonna give you an easy guess.
SPEAKER_01Although, let me tell you, this is a guess I was already gonna say. As my bracket went. The only part of a bracket that busted was Krillin. Krillin actually beating Chiyatsu. Which in hindsight I should have guessed, but I was giving more credit to like the villains being more villainous. But yeah. Um, so obviously Goku wins. Wins the match. What do you think they mean by tail's tale? Tails tale. Well, I think it ha like the only tail we know of in the show is like Goku's tail. So maybe there's like and it's tail tails T A I L apostrophe S. Yeah. And then Tail T-A-L-E. T L E yeah. Um not Tel T E L L.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, not Tell Tell, like the games. Yeah. No, not that one.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. Maybe like Goku like has a story about it or something. Like may maybe there's like a conversation, like 'cause like maybe his maybe Krillin goes oh, Krillin probably goes to try to like use the tell as a weakness. Yeah. And Goku overcomes it, and there's like a like there's a flashback tell yeah about how Goku like learned to overcome his tail weakness. That's gotta that's the only that's the only logical place this goes in my brain. Now that I've thought it through a little bit, that's gotta be it. And that's how Goku ends up winning, is that it doesn't work. It's like Krillin's last gasp to try to try to beat him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then what do you think is gonna happen and final match, Goku versus TN.
SPEAKER_01If the mat if the fight starts like right at the beginning of the episode, or like it has started in the at the end of the last episode, uh like of the first episode of the like Tales Tale, then it'll finish up, and I'm gonna guess there's two there's two things.
SPEAKER_00Do you want me to tell you something? What you've got after these two episodes, we've got one.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00We've got four more episodes after these two episodes. It's a two episode, right? You think it's a two-episode five?
SPEAKER_01I don't I I think it doesn't start till like mid-episode. Okay. Alright. But it's it's looking even, and then like the cliffhanger is going to be Tien kind of having an epiphany about Roshi Roshi about what Roshi told him in these episodes at the end of the episode.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01He gets he has an epiphany. Yeah. But no one will win yet. Okay. Or we have just we have a whole lot of random stuff to do in the next four episodes or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Alright, so just to remind you all at home, he predicts that Goku will win the first match. Uh Krillin tries to use the tail, but we already know that that doesn't work because somebody else tried to use the tail previously. Yeah. Um there's gonna be a two-episode fight where in which TN has an epiphany. So that's what we have as your predictions. So, Jesse, what was your worst part?
SPEAKER_01Uh, I mean, honestly, like the these episodes don't really have like awful, terrible parts. Like, even like the part that we we kind of glossed over, but it was in like the factoids of where like Yamcha's getting the radio in the beginning of the first episode. Like, even that's like it has a narrative sense to it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it fills in a gap that isn't is there in the manga, apparently.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, where it's like, yeah, well, you know, obviously he's listened, like they're listening to the matches, like they know what's going on. Um so I mean that's not that bad. Like, there's not really a pervy moment that's bad. Yeah. Because it's just him turning around and seeing like the really big muscular girl.
SPEAKER_00I'll tell you what my worst part is. What's the worst part? Jackie Chung ceasing to exist as soon as the fight's over. That's my worst part. My favor one of my favorite characters is just gone. Second favorite character. Gone, but not forgotten. Jackie, may may your holiness be honest.
SPEAKER_01I'm buying a bucket of chicken in your honor.
SPEAKER_00Yes, Jackie.
SPEAKER_01Colonel Colonel Colonel Colonel Chun.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Um, but Jesse, that's my worst part. Um I I don't like you said, you don't really seem to have a lot of I don't I mean like
SPEAKER_01For for me, because I was I mean, I lo I enjoyed Jackie and I'm sad that he's gone. But he has served his purpose to the narrative at this point. Yeah, he even kinda like Rush even kind of says that is like He's like he's he's done what he he did what he needed to. Like like that that persona, that person has has has served their purpose and moved on to better things. Yeah. Like inventing finger-licking good chicken. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So Jesse, what's your best part then? Uh inventing finger-like our conversation about Jackie Chung this episode was our favorite part. No, and I'll tell you what my favorite part of these episodes were. What? Replaying it three times with Krillin and Krillin uh sucking in the air and becoming a balloon. Yeah, and it was gonna be Krillin's. My boy Kay Rillin.
SPEAKER_01I'm honest, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be honest. Like it's the conversation between Roshi and Tin, like at the end of the end of the episode. Where it's like, it's it's such a great example of like as I stated in the episode, like it's such a great example of like why Roshi is such a beloved character, even with all of his negative uh moments of being pervy, doing really quite scummy things. Yeah. It's like he still like you have these moments where it's like he is a good character, he he ultimately is serving a purpose of like he has a conscience, he is good, yeah, he just has one glaring weakness, and it is women.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, and that's the reason I picked the Krillin moments is because if I picked the Roshi moments, I knew you were also gonna pick the Roshi moments. Yeah. And so I was picking something that I personally enjoy. If I were being like unbiased, the best part of this episode is the conversation between Tien and Roshi. But I was picking the Krillin thing because I wanted to talk about, you know, it's my boy Kay Rillin. Probably gonna be the last thing he does for this arc, basically, because we probably we already know in two episodes he's out of the he's out of the tournament.
SPEAKER_01So at least in two episodes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I was gonna say one last time before we say goodbye to Krillin for this arc. Um, it was great to have you there. You pulled off some good moves. You were able to get a replay at three times on Goku. I'm excited to Kirby.
SPEAKER_01I'm excited to see the end of the fight in the next one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm excited to see where where it goes. Um I'm excited to see what all happens. But yeah, I mean, obviously Roshi's part is the best part. It's the part we talked about most in this episode outside of Jackie's departure from this universe. Yeah. Um, but outside of that, like that was the thing we talked about the most out of these two episodes was like Roshi and his conversations.
SPEAKER_01Roshi's legitimately like just of pulling off sensei stuff. Like he's doing he's doing what a person in his role of this story should do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01He's teaching the new generation.
SPEAKER_00He's yeah, he even says that at one point is like, there's a new generation of fighters. I'm I can't keep up. All I can do is try to help.
SPEAKER_01I'm at the point where like I could I could beat them before I I could barely beat them when I trained them like for a year the first time. Yeah. Now they have three more years under their belt. Accidentally four more years under their belt or whatever. Yeah. It's like like three or four more years now. It's like I can't touch them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like he he he figured that out when Goku just destroyed Pompa. He's like, oh, I'm touching that.
SPEAKER_00He found it out originally when he destroyed uh King Chapa.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's yeah.
SPEAKER_00That was the first moment.
SPEAKER_01Then he saw like.
SPEAKER_00Because he's literally like Jackie had an existential crisis after seeing that, where he's like he's literally out there like stunned during this fight. Um, but yeah, this is this is great characterization for Roshi. It shows why he can be everyone's favorites while having the glaring weakness that he has.
SPEAKER_01As many people Hawaii can be a favorite to so many people. Yeah. Despite his glaring weakness, you know. His glaring, his one ginormous glaring flaw that keeps coming up in these episodes when we talk about it.
SPEAKER_00And it almost feels like maybe it's uh a certain creator's flaw, which we can't get into because I don't know much about him, but it feels like it's either something he believes or all or it's something that's like a you know, just like a a common joke in these shows that he's just bouncing onto. I don't know what came first, the trope or the character in the situation.
SPEAKER_01I think I th I uh we're talking about Akira, like and his his propensity to write these types of old man characters. Yeah. I think he just enjoys like it's probably a really easy joke style character for him to fall back on when he needs a joke, but he doesn't want to like risk a serious character making a joke in a moment. Yeah. He's like, I'll just make I'll make uh like in Dragon Ball, I'll just make a Roshi do something weird. Yeah. That's easy. It's like because there are moments where you want to like insert a a funny moment, but like you don't want to do it through the serious characters of them of the time. So like you flash away to somebody doing something stupid. Yeah. And who there's it's easy to write old man characters, especially at the time he was writing. It's easy to write old man characters doing something creepy. Yeah, because everyone knows every no offense, but a lot of people in this world know a creepy old man. Yeah. Especially especially especially if you're if you're a woman, you have probably multiple stories of creepy old men. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Literally, the other day at work, one of my co-workers, there was a guy who came in, and after he left, she was like, I'm already done with the day. And it was like 9 30. And it was because that guy like apparently like winked at her, like, there's no way I listened, so that's why I'm saying this. But this guy, this guy winked, this older guy like winked at her apparently like eight times while he was like, Well, she wasn't even helping him, I was helping him, and he just kept looking over and like winking, and it's like she was like, I'm done with the day. Yeah, basically, like pulling she was like, I'm done. I I I I'm leaving. I mean, I don't know. I was like, I took this conversation with this guy to try to avoid this situation. It still happened, it still happened.
SPEAKER_01It's just it's such a glaring point of just like there's there's only so much you can do to alleviate situations like that.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. But with that, great note, we're gonna leave y'all. Um positive. Thank you guys all for listening. Uh if you like what you're hearing, uh remember to download, subscribe, rate, review, leave us a five-star rating. You can also send us an email at becomingsayans at gmail.com, or you can follow us and send us a DM on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, or TikTok. All at BecomingSaians Pod. And until next time, I've been Truan. And I've been Jesse. And the journey continues.
SPEAKER_01Bye.